Save the native Umpqua steel

plumb2fish said:
Those pics are exactly the kind of experience I want to be able to pass on to my kids and grandkids(no Mike there are none on the way yet)

guess you better tell andy to get on it then so you can take them up thier before december becuase did you guys forget thats the end of the world anyways.lol

Man I crack myself up hopefully this will lighten the subject and everyone quits targeting eachother and state opinion then move on.Also I hope you guys understand bottom line is what they decide will happen and tuff to the opposing team
 
Unfortunately there are already a huge number of fish illegally harvested all over the state and I know everyone already knows that but who knows if it would change things with a 1/5 harvest I doubt it though, the poachers are gonna probably keep going at the same level. Now for the people who do respect the fishery and handle fish right and release them or only keep a few it wont make much of an impact but how is everything gonna be monitored 24/7 thats the main issue. Im not an activist at all but what really makes me mad is the idiots who find natives spawning in tiny streams and take them out just because its easy, yesterday I heard of a guy pulling one out of a small creek and it was dropping eggs as he dragged it home. Thats what's ruining are fisheries on top of hatchery fish mixing in with natives. Oh well though I guess theres nothing we can do about it but could you imagine what the runs were like back when lewis & clark arrived. The native americans truly knew how to manage fishing and hunting to where they only took what they needed. Anyways though yea it might not matter if its the end of the world haha
 
brandon4455 said:

B.S.!!!!!! :rolleyes:

Probably one of the heathiest native winter steelehad runs on the west coast! :think: Last year the count was over 14,000 fish! Historically the fish returns remain constant and stable regardless of harvest. It's more a question of habitat and escapement! Plenty of broodstock for reproduction! The fish counts at Winchester have that well documented....it's called "sustainable harvest" and the brotherhood of catch and release'rs know it! :think: Don't drink the cool-aid of a well-to-do special interest group, they don't like to share!
 
Modest_Man said:
How do you know it will have a negative impact? Honest question. Seems like you're making assumptions. Here's some more from the linked-to-proposed changes, that provides evidence that there will not be a negative impact.

"To look at the populations I used a student’s t-test to compare the number of wild STW crossing Winchester Dam while there was a 1/5 harvest (2000/01 – 2006/07) to the number of wild STW when the harvest was closed 2007/08 – 2010/11). There was no significant difference in the number of wild STW crossing the dam (P = 0.629, SD 2138.45 during harvest years, SD 996.55 non-harvest years). During 2004/05 through 2006/07 the Main stem was open to harvest in addition to the harvest on the North. With an ANOVA, the years when both the Main and North were open to harvest, had the highest significance level (P = .084). When both rivers were open, the Winchester Dam counts did stay above intrinsic productivity needs (1,664 to 5,757 returning adults) noted in the 2004 BA of Impacts to Wild Winter Steelhead from the Recreational Fishery report. When the Main was open to a 1 and 5 harvest, from 49% to 66% of the wild STW harvested were harvested from the Mainstem. Wild STW counts across Winchester Dam from 1990 – 1998 were relatively low when both the Main and the North were open to a 2 per day, 20 per year wild STW harvest. Under this regime there were years when less 5,757 wild adults returned. However, during the last 10 years the average wild counts have been 8,723."

From 2000 to 2007 there were an average of 8,504 wild fish across the dam each year, when harvest was allowed.
From 2007 to 2011 there were an average of 8,979 wild fish across the dam each year, when harvest was not allowed.

Lean up on some population dynamics Brandon. It's not so simple that 8,000 wild fish - 500 fish = 7,500 returning down the road. Populations have different growth rates under different densities.

OMG!!!

Someone on this forum that makes sense!!! Thank you! :clap:
 
Mad dog said:
B.S.!!!!!! :rolleyes:

Probably one of the heathiest native winter steelehad runs on the west coast! :think: Last year the count was over 14,000 fish! Historically the fish returns remain constant and stable regardless of harvest. It's more a question of habitat and escapement! Plenty of broodstock for reproduction! The fish counts at Winchester have that well documented....it's called "sustainable harvest" and the brotherhood of catch and release'rs know it! :think: Don't drink the cool-aid of a well-to-do special interest group, they don't like to share!

X2
 
DRAMA, DRAMA DRAMA... why i dont post on here much anymore lmao.
 
brandon4455 said:
i know mortality is a part of fishing i dont know why people keep going on about that crap im not a retard. it's greedy people wanting to bonk natives when there are plenty hatchery fish around that doesn't make any sense to me.

The last part of your sentence indicates you DON'T get it. You don't seem willing to set aside your own views to consider someone elses. It's about the science, not morals.
 
wow.... it's a good thing we don't talk politics around here :lol:
 
I love how people slam ODFW. You do know that there are very smart people making decisions there right? Marine Biologists with Masters and PHDs handling the sustainability side of things, and smart businessmen with MBAs creating a balance that creates revenue to fund hatcheries and other operations while keeping the fish runs alive, as well as recover from the disaster that happened for about a century and decimated our rivers.

Here's the director's bio:

Director, Roy Elicker

Elicker, 57, has worked for ODFW since 1993 when he was hired as a Watershed Health Program Coordinator. Other positions held include Fish Screening Program Manager, Fish Division Deputy Administrator, Legislative Coordinator, and Deputy Director for Fish and Wildlife Programs. He was appointed Director on August 3, 2007 after serving as Acting Director on two separate occasions.

Elicker serves on numerous national organizations. He is Chair of the Western Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies Ad Hoc Lead Group, and is currently serving a two-year term on the federal Sports Fishing and Boating Partnership Council. He is also the Oregon Commissioner for the Pacific Salmon Commission which deals with salmon harvest and jurisdictional issues between the United States and Canada.

An avid duck hunter and outdoor enthusiast, Elicker earned a Master’s Degree in wildlife biology from Rutgers University in 1982 and an environmental law degree from Lewis and Clark College Northwest School of Law.


Sorry if this offends some of you, but I'm going to trust what this guy and his peers come up with more than drivel spouted on an internet message board by some weekend warriors.

If you really want to make a difference, if your goal is to kill any retention of any wild fish anywhere in Oregon, then study up. Finish high school if you haven't. Go to college. Get a advanced degree. Elicker has a Masters AND a Law degree. If you want to be the next Roy Elicker then education is the way to go.

There are a few people on here who are in the process of attaining a degree from Oregon State with a focus on Marine Biology, Forestry, or something along those lines. Talk to them. See how they like it. Ask them to mentor you if it's something you might be interested in. But don't spout off about something that you know very little about. BTW, this is not directed at any one single person but pretty much anybody who thinks that they know more than the experts at ODFW.
 
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n8r1 said:
I love how people slam ODFW. You do know that there are very smart people making decisions there right? Marine Biologists with Masters and PHDs handling the sustainability side of things, and smart businessmen with MBAs creating a balance that creates revenue to fund hatcheries and other operations while keeping the fish runs alive, as well as recover from the disaster that happened for about a century and decimated our rivers.

Here's the director's bio:

Director, Roy Elicker

Elicker, 57, has worked for ODFW since 1993 when he was hired as a Watershed Health Program Coordinator. Other positions held include Fish Screening Program Manager, Fish Division Deputy Administrator, Legislative Coordinator, and Deputy Director for Fish and Wildlife Programs. He was appointed Director on August 3, 2007 after serving as Acting Director on two separate occasions.

Elicker serves on numerous national organizations. He is Chair of the Western Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies Ad Hoc Lead Group, and is currently serving a two-year term on the federal Sports Fishing and Boating Partnership Council. He is also the Oregon Commissioner for the Pacific Salmon Commission which deals with salmon harvest and jurisdictional issues between the United States and Canada.

An avid duck hunter and outdoor enthusiast, Elicker earned a Master’s Degree in wildlife biology from Rutgers University in 1982 and an environmental law degree from Lewis and Clark College Northwest School of Law.


Sorry if this offends some of you, but I'm going to trust what this guy and his peers come up with more than drivel spouted on an internet message board by some weekend warriors.

If you really want to make a difference, if your goal is to kill any retention of any wild fish anywhere in Oregon, then study up. Finish high school if you haven't. Go to college. Get a advanced degree. Elicker has a Masters AND a Law degree. If you want to be the next Roy Elicker then education is the way to go.

There are a few people on here who are in the process of attaining a degree from Oregon State with a focus on Marine Biology, Forestry, or something along those lines. Talk to them. See how they like it. Ask them to mentor you if it's something you might be interested in. But don't spout off about something that you know very little about. BTW, this is not directed at any one single person but pretty much anybody who thinks that they know more than the experts at ODFW.

The problem with ODFW is the Politics. Decisions based strictly on biology are rare, and the almighty $$$ and special interest groups have much more sway then they should. FWIW I am a fisheries student, and I have had several years of practical experience working on a local fish and wildlife committee.

EDIT:

Thats not to say that local BIO's don't do anything or do everything wrong. Often times they give a biological opinion and salem does what salem wants....
 
Last edited:
n8r1 said:
I love how people slam ODFW. You do know that there are very smart people making decisions there right? Marine Biologists with Masters and PHDs handling the sustainability side of things, and smart businessmen with MBAs creating a balance that creates revenue to fund hatcheries and other operations while keeping the fish runs alive, as well as recover from the disaster that happened for about a century and decimated our rivers.

Here's the director's bio:

Director, Roy Elicker

Elicker, 57, has worked for ODFW since 1993 when he was hired as a Watershed Health Program Coordinator. Other positions held include Fish Screening Program Manager, Fish Division Deputy Administrator, Legislative Coordinator, and Deputy Director for Fish and Wildlife Programs. He was appointed Director on August 3, 2007 after serving as Acting Director on two separate occasions.

Elicker serves on numerous national organizations. He is Chair of the Western Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies Ad Hoc Lead Group, and is currently serving a two-year term on the federal Sports Fishing and Boating Partnership Council. He is also the Oregon Commissioner for the Pacific Salmon Commission which deals with salmon harvest and jurisdictional issues between the United States and Canada.

An avid duck hunter and outdoor enthusiast, Elicker earned a Master’s Degree in wildlife biology from Rutgers University in 1982 and an environmental law degree from Lewis and Clark College Northwest School of Law.


Sorry if this offends some of you, but I'm going to trust what this guy and his peers come up with more than drivel spouted on an internet message board by some weekend warriors.

If you really want to make a difference, if your goal is to kill any retention of any wild fish anywhere in Oregon, then study up. Finish high school if you haven't. Go to college. Get a advanced degree. Elicker has a Masters AND a Law degree. If you want to be the next Roy Elicker then education is the way to go.

There are a few people on here who are in the process of attaining a degree from Oregon State with a focus on Marine Biology, Forestry, or something along those lines. Talk to them. See how they like it. Ask them to mentor you if it's something you might be interested in. But don't spout off about something that you know very little about. BTW, this is not directed at any one single person but pretty much anybody who thinks that they know more than the experts at ODFW.


I agree, good post.
 
n8r1 said:
I love how people slam ODFW. You do know that there are very smart people making decisions there right? Marine Biologists with Masters and PHDs handling the sustainability side of things, and smart businessmen with MBAs creating a balance that creates revenue to fund hatcheries and other operations while keeping the fish runs alive, as well as recover from the disaster that happened for about a century and decimated our rivers.

Here's the director's bio:

Director, Roy Elicker

Elicker, 57, has worked for ODFW since 1993 when he was hired as a Watershed Health Program Coordinator. Other positions held include Fish Screening Program Manager, Fish Division Deputy Administrator, Legislative Coordinator, and Deputy Director for Fish and Wildlife Programs. He was appointed Director on August 3, 2007 after serving as Acting Director on two separate occasions.

Elicker serves on numerous national organizations. He is Chair of the Western Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies Ad Hoc Lead Group, and is currently serving a two-year term on the federal Sports Fishing and Boating Partnership Council. He is also the Oregon Commissioner for the Pacific Salmon Commission which deals with salmon harvest and jurisdictional issues between the United States and Canada.

An avid duck hunter and outdoor enthusiast, Elicker earned a Master’s Degree in wildlife biology from Rutgers University in 1982 and an environmental law degree from Lewis and Clark College Northwest School of Law.


Sorry if this offends some of you, but I'm going to trust what this guy and his peers come up with more than drivel spouted on an internet message board by some weekend warriors.

If you really want to make a difference, if your goal is to kill any retention of any wild fish anywhere in Oregon, then study up. Finish high school if you haven't. Go to college. Get a advanced degree. Elicker has a Masters AND a Law degree. If you want to be the next Roy Elicker then education is the way to go.

There are a few people on here who are in the process of attaining a degree from Oregon State with a focus on Marine Biology, Forestry, or something along those lines. Talk to them. See how they like it. Ask them to mentor you if it's something you might be interested in. But don't spout off about something that you know very little about. BTW, this is not directed at any one single person but pretty much anybody who thinks that they know more than the experts at ODFW.

Here here! If it was just about the biology management would be EASY. It's not, and never will be.
 
mosd said:
DRAMA, DRAMA DRAMA... why i dont post on here much anymore lmao.
Spirited debate and drama, there is a fine line between the two. If you dont like(the very pertinent issue) thats being discussed on this thread,dont read it! I feel the same way as you, mosd, but sometimes an issue is worth putting in my two worthless pennies:D
 
n8r1 said:
I love how people slam ODFW. You do know that there are very smart people making decisions there right? Marine Biologists with Masters and PHDs handling the sustainability side of things, and smart businessmen with MBAs creating a balance that creates revenue to fund hatcheries and other operations while keeping the fish runs alive, as well as recover from the disaster that happened for about a century and decimated our rivers.

Here's the director's bio:

Director, Roy Elicker

Elicker, 57, has worked for ODFW since 1993 when he was hired as a Watershed Health Program Coordinator. Other positions held include Fish Screening Program Manager, Fish Division Deputy Administrator, Legislative Coordinator, and Deputy Director for Fish and Wildlife Programs. He was appointed Director on August 3, 2007 after serving as Acting Director on two separate occasions.

Elicker serves on numerous national organizations. He is Chair of the Western Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies Ad Hoc Lead Group, and is currently serving a two-year term on the federal Sports Fishing and Boating Partnership Council. He is also the Oregon Commissioner for the Pacific Salmon Commission which deals with salmon harvest and jurisdictional issues between the United States and Canada.

An avid duck hunter and outdoor enthusiast, Elicker earned a Master’s Degree in wildlife biology from Rutgers University in 1982 and an environmental law degree from Lewis and Clark College Northwest School of Law.


Sorry if this offends some of you, but I'm going to trust what this guy and his peers come up with more than drivel spouted on an internet message board by some weekend warriors.

If you really want to make a difference, if your goal is to kill any retention of any wild fish anywhere in Oregon, then study up. Finish high school if you haven't. Go to college. Get a advanced degree. Elicker has a Masters AND a Law degree. If you want to be the next Roy Elicker then education is the way to go.

There are a few people on here who are in the process of attaining a degree from Oregon State with a focus on Marine Biology, Forestry, or something along those lines. Talk to them. See how they like it. Ask them to mentor you if it's something you might be interested in. But don't spout off about something that you know very little about. BTW, this is not directed at any one single person but pretty much anybody who thinks that they know more than the experts at ODFW.
I didn't mean to imply that I know better than ODFW, nor do I think they dont know what they are doing. Its just the Walmart politics and the money grabbing policies that ODFW seems to be embracing that make me sick. The only reason I give a sh*t about anything that ODFW does,is because it directly affects the only thing in this world that keeps me from going postal. Just like any natural resource management division of our government,the ultimate goal is to funnel us into chutes like sheep,meanwhile we pay more and more for the privilege of less and less opportunity. You dont know who I am,you dont have a clue what I know. doesn't make any difference,this is a forum, I am simply stating my opinion.Agree or not,no reason to be insulting.
 
n8r1 said:
I love how people slam ODFW. You do know that there are very smart people making decisions there right? Marine Biologists with Masters and PHDs handling the sustainability side of things, and smart businessmen with MBAs creating a balance that creates revenue to fund hatcheries and other operations while keeping the fish runs alive, as well as recover from the disaster that happened for about a century and decimated our rivers.

Here's the director's bio:

Director, Roy Elicker

Elicker, 57, has worked for ODFW since 1993 when he was hired as a Watershed Health Program Coordinator. Other positions held include Fish Screening Program Manager, Fish Division Deputy Administrator, Legislative Coordinator, and Deputy Director for Fish and Wildlife Programs. He was appointed Director on August 3, 2007 after serving as Acting Director on two separate occasions.

Elicker serves on numerous national organizations. He is Chair of the Western Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies Ad Hoc Lead Group, and is currently serving a two-year term on the federal Sports Fishing and Boating Partnership Council. He is also the Oregon Commissioner for the Pacific Salmon Commission which deals with salmon harvest and jurisdictional issues between the United States and Canada.

An avid duck hunter and outdoor enthusiast, Elicker earned a Master’s Degree in wildlife biology from Rutgers University in 1982 and an environmental law degree from Lewis and Clark College Northwest School of Law.


Sorry if this offends some of you, but I'm going to trust what this guy and his peers come up with more than drivel spouted on an internet message board by some weekend warriors.

If you really want to make a difference, if your goal is to kill any retention of any wild fish anywhere in Oregon, then study up. Finish high school if you haven't. Go to college. Get a advanced degree. Elicker has a Masters AND a Law degree. If you want to be the next Roy Elicker then education is the way to go.

There are a few people on here who are in the process of attaining a degree from Oregon State with a focus on Marine Biology, Forestry, or something along those lines. Talk to them. See how they like it. Ask them to mentor you if it's something you might be interested in. But don't spout off about something that you know very little about. BTW, this is not directed at any one single person but pretty much anybody who thinks that they know more than the experts at ODFW.

Does his job come with a superman cape??? FROM THE WAY THIS BIO DESCRIBES HIM IT SOUNDS LIKE HE CAN JUMP A TALL BUILDING IN A SINGLE BOUND!
 
fishinshawn said:
The problem with ODFW is the Politics. Decisions based strictly on biology are rare, and the almighty $$$ and special interest groups have much more sway then they should. FWIW I am a fisheries student, and I have had several years of practical experience working on a local fish and wildlife committee.

EDIT:

Thats not to say that local BIO's don't do anything or do everything wrong. Often times they give a biological opinion and salem does what salem wants....

fishinshawn is spot on about $$$ and special interest groups....the whole reason why the wild fish retention was changed....there will be an army of guides and normal, everyday fishing types showing up at the next meeting....trust me!!!

One little group of snobs with money and the ear of the ODFW basically ruined a fishery for everyone! Sure, go fish the flywater....you'll have to fish it exactly as they want you fish it! And don't worry....you will never be a part of their little club so it doesn't matter even if you do! Trust me....they don't like you!
 
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fishinshawn said:
It's about the science, not morals.

And the fun part about morals or ethics is that there is no singular, correct ideology; 'moral' or 'ethical' behavior depends solely on the personal philosophy of the individual in question and can be different for everyone. In other words, something viewed as morally wrong by one, may in fact be morally acceptable by another and neither person is necessarily incorrect. Fun stuff ;)
 
n8r1 said:
...and smart businessmen with MBAs creating a balance that creates revenue to fund hatcheries and other operations while keeping the fish runs alive, as well as recover from the disaster that happened for about a century and decimated our rivers.

Ah, but the pragmatic side of me recognizes, from both personal experience and much historical evidence, that business and money nearly always corrupts decision-making, even in cases of 'for a good cause' to a point where the decisions are based on achieving continued funding, sustaining the 'business' and not necessarily for a pure, philanthropic best interest of animals, environment, other affected parties, etc.

And I don't mean corrupt as in evil; rather, using this case as a hypothetical example, just swayed to a point that the decisions will not be based solely on the stated 'goal' or best interests of fish/fisheries, and start becoming affected by attempts to artificially continue the 'cause' build or maintain job bases, kind of like building in obsolescence in a product...it creates 'job' security, keeps money flowing in, keeps salaries and the 'need' going indefinitely.
 

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