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JeannaJigs
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Way to always contribute positively to every thread you have to respond to. Cheese and rice.
The big corky question
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Drew9870
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JeannaJigs said:
Broadening peoples horizons..... I enjoy getting fishermen to understand the 999 possibilities in any given situation, sorry that people disagree with most of the facts stated earlier and think I am an idiot for knowing the possibilities along with never once stating the fish won't eat them.
I know there are a lot of people in Oregon who agree with what I have stated earlier, the only people who replied are those who disagreed.
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Drew9870
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Go back to the first posts on this thread and tell me I wasn't trying to contribute positively, read it carefully, maybe people will believe I do surprisingly have a little experience.
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ChezJfrey
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Drew9870 said:
Drew, normally I think you're a good guy, but you accuse many of not reading your posts, or only doing a cursory glance...perhaps you need to pay a bit better attention yourself.
The comment you accuse FNC of, was made by the hitman.
Also, you mention YOUR 'facts' that these salmon don't eat corkies as one doesn't find round sparkly things in their fullet, or that if it was caught at 3R, then it was, 'assuredly flossed'. Then you also mention 'endless possibilities'. Ergo, I'm sure these limitless (or 999, or 8x whatever possibilities I can think of...RE: your statement that most only think of 1/8) also includes a FACT that salmon strike corkies and don't intend to eat them, and that the hatchery hole at 3R can be fished in a non-snagging technique and a fish can be caught that way.
Thus, your facts, and other poster's facts in this thread, are not mutually exclusive.
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Drew9870
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Anything is possible, maybe FnC did get that fish to eat his corky, I wasn't there.
My point in this thread was to state the endless possiblilities, and the fact that we (including I) cannot either assume a fish was flossed or ate it unless we personally watched up close and personal, it also depends on the area you are in, any place like Three Rivers is prime floss water, it is safe to say 80% of these fish are not eating (this is put into account with the main method used here), the water at Three Rivers Hatchery is 3ft deep at the most, section is wide enough to poke the other shore with a 15ft rod, in the days I used to fish Three Rivers, I sight fished (flossed) most of my fish, none of these fish attacked the corky.
My point in this thread was to state the endless possiblilities, and the fact that we (including I) cannot either assume a fish was flossed or ate it unless we personally watched up close and personal, it also depends on the area you are in, any place like Three Rivers is prime floss water, it is safe to say 80% of these fish are not eating (this is put into account with the main method used here), the water at Three Rivers Hatchery is 3ft deep at the most, section is wide enough to poke the other shore with a 15ft rod, in the days I used to fish Three Rivers, I sight fished (flossed) most of my fish, none of these fish attacked the corky.
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AK Angler
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I'm struggling with the relevancy of this. It's like half the thread is about Corkies and bites, while the other half is about something else entirely.
As much as I appreciate everyone's willingness to contribute, the question specifically pertains to the Rogue River, not 3 Rivers. In Southern Oregon, I've only heard the "fish don't bite" stuff about the Rogue, and from those who have first-hand experience fishing it. To me, the "fish don't bite" line sounds a lot like a rationalization for all the flossing that goes on. I've been told other rivers are different, and that you won't find the flossing as pervasive elsewhere (but it's spreading).
What I'm really trying to figure out is if there is a worthwhile and productive alternative to flossing Chinooks from the bank of the Middle and Upper Rogue river. So far, it sounds like the only place to find fish that will bite for bankies is below Galice, all the way down to the mouth. Or, the other option is (of course) a boat.
On a related note, I went out on the Umpqua with a guy who's been guiding 30+ years yesterday (Sunday 9/11). He ran a lodge for a number of years up in Alaska before coming down here. He said he used to hammer Chinooks with giant, golf-ball sized yarn balls, but he has never been able to get a king down here to hit them. So perhaps Chinooks have more geographical variation with respect to what induces a strike than one might expect. To me it seems as weird as saying that a specific ethnicity of humans won't eat apples. But maybe there's some strains of Chinook where some things work that won't work on others.
As much as I appreciate everyone's willingness to contribute, the question specifically pertains to the Rogue River, not 3 Rivers. In Southern Oregon, I've only heard the "fish don't bite" stuff about the Rogue, and from those who have first-hand experience fishing it. To me, the "fish don't bite" line sounds a lot like a rationalization for all the flossing that goes on. I've been told other rivers are different, and that you won't find the flossing as pervasive elsewhere (but it's spreading).
What I'm really trying to figure out is if there is a worthwhile and productive alternative to flossing Chinooks from the bank of the Middle and Upper Rogue river. So far, it sounds like the only place to find fish that will bite for bankies is below Galice, all the way down to the mouth. Or, the other option is (of course) a boat.
On a related note, I went out on the Umpqua with a guy who's been guiding 30+ years yesterday (Sunday 9/11). He ran a lodge for a number of years up in Alaska before coming down here. He said he used to hammer Chinooks with giant, golf-ball sized yarn balls, but he has never been able to get a king down here to hit them. So perhaps Chinooks have more geographical variation with respect to what induces a strike than one might expect. To me it seems as weird as saying that a specific ethnicity of humans won't eat apples. But maybe there's some strains of Chinook where some things work that won't work on others.
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RunWithSasquatch
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Drew, countless times you have come under fire, and its not because of your opinions, its how you portray them. Everyone is welcome to there own, but you always come off saying you're opening everyones doors, because there minds are stuck in a box.
You love to teach so much, but you act as though you're done learning your self.
If you self appoint yourself as king of all fish knowledge, you can expect a lot of rebuttals when most disagree with you.
You love to teach so much, but you act as though you're done learning your self.
If you self appoint yourself as king of all fish knowledge, you can expect a lot of rebuttals when most disagree with you.
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Drew9870
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Why do I call them 'facts', because I never straight up said the fish do or don't, fact is, anything is possbile, and this is what I mean't. It is because people think it is fact that it is very unlikely to floss a Salmon, so they continue to believe that the reason why it is so close to the mouth is because it tried eating it.
I'm too ADHD to make my point clear, I will start rambling on about something and all of the sudden start talking straight to the point, leaving me unclear or misunderstood. Sorry everyone
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I'll never believe I am done learning, I learn something new everyday I am on the water, I try to be very observant.
I'm too ADHD to make my point clear, I will start rambling on about something and all of the sudden start talking straight to the point, leaving me unclear or misunderstood. Sorry everyone
.I'll never believe I am done learning, I learn something new everyday I am on the water, I try to be very observant.
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AK Angler
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Drew9870 said:
My understanding is that spawning salmon stop eating period. They may instinctively strike something that smells or looks like food they ate back in their sea-going days, but everything I've heard through the years indicates that "hunger" has nothing to do with why salmon strike. Inasmuch, I'd only expect a salmon to strike a corky out of anger or aggression.
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Drew9870
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Any fish can leave the ocean still hungry, I mean no offense, but you didn't catch the point of me saying that. The area I am talking about is specifically a major flossing hole, and with the way this hole is set up, it would be very much tough to fish a legit method.
They do not stop eating period, people plunk Herring high on the N Santiam River with luck.
They do not stop eating period, people plunk Herring high on the N Santiam River with luck.
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AK Angler
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I'm going to go back and draw on my Alaska experience again.
I’d estimate that at the hole I primarily fish, 75% of the fish that get hooked are in the mouth. Newbies and novices almost always hook fish in the mouth, mostly because they are late with the hookset or don't even bother setting the hook. A lot of beginners like to use pole holders when plunking Corkies, so they just wait for their rod to bend-bend-bow before picking it up. Remember, when you're plunking a pool or back eddy, the corky rig isn't moving in the current. It's just sitting there. And the bite often isn't a single, solitary tap, nor does it feel like a fish that just got unlucky and is swimming off with a hook and line stuck in it. It's a distinct, bump or tug, often with 2-4 bumps or tugs in succession.
Usually, the only fish I see snagged up there are from those folks who are late on the hookset. If the fish mouths the rig but drops it and starts swimming away before you set the hook, it seems very likely that you can snag a fish in retreat. Sometimes, a fish will swim into a line (what Drew calls "vertical flossing"), and that will result in a snag (with or without a hookset), but it doesn't happen that often.
I'm pretty confident that the kings in Alaska are hitting the corky rig with purpose, with intent and with their mouth. Everyone who says you'll never know what the fish are thinking are right. But the circumstantial evidence strongly points to a willing strike.
Now there are some guys who like drifting the Alaska Corky setup. I imagine that drifting will result in a lot more snagged fish vs. plunking simply because you have a sharp hook moving through the water.
I’d estimate that at the hole I primarily fish, 75% of the fish that get hooked are in the mouth. Newbies and novices almost always hook fish in the mouth, mostly because they are late with the hookset or don't even bother setting the hook. A lot of beginners like to use pole holders when plunking Corkies, so they just wait for their rod to bend-bend-bow before picking it up. Remember, when you're plunking a pool or back eddy, the corky rig isn't moving in the current. It's just sitting there. And the bite often isn't a single, solitary tap, nor does it feel like a fish that just got unlucky and is swimming off with a hook and line stuck in it. It's a distinct, bump or tug, often with 2-4 bumps or tugs in succession.
Usually, the only fish I see snagged up there are from those folks who are late on the hookset. If the fish mouths the rig but drops it and starts swimming away before you set the hook, it seems very likely that you can snag a fish in retreat. Sometimes, a fish will swim into a line (what Drew calls "vertical flossing"), and that will result in a snag (with or without a hookset), but it doesn't happen that often.
I'm pretty confident that the kings in Alaska are hitting the corky rig with purpose, with intent and with their mouth. Everyone who says you'll never know what the fish are thinking are right. But the circumstantial evidence strongly points to a willing strike.
Now there are some guys who like drifting the Alaska Corky setup. I imagine that drifting will result in a lot more snagged fish vs. plunking simply because you have a sharp hook moving through the water.
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halibuthitman
Well-known member
the presentation angle with corkies and plunking is a questionable one, thats really why it works better in a back bouncing scenario, you can move it into a fishes comfort zone and induce a strike, or at least put it dead in a holding zone. I have never believed that salmon don't feed out of the salt, its simply ridiculous to even think. However, every single river I have ever fished has a spot where hardware starts producing more than bait. I personally would plunk plugs with wraps before I ever used a spin and glo or corki simply becouse plugs have way outperformed corkis or spin&glos... If you fish any river in oregon with a k-14 the same way a person would fish big eddy or the graveyard on the kenai or kasilof style you would catch a ton of fish- for instance.. if you back-bounce from a point on a bank into an eddy or cut bank run like they do at the steelhead campground on the anchor river you would get very much the same results here, corky,herring,plug, roe.. any bait, becouse you would have the control. as for the little bead giant hook rogue thing... as an alaskan you and I both know thats a jerkin jimmy rig, and I personaly would never use it, but I also could care less if someone snags a fish, if they are gonna eat and enjoy it.
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AK Angler
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Drew9870 said:
Instinct. It smells like food they ate back when they were in the ocean. Whenever they smelled herring in the ocean, they went after it. That's what they did every day for 2-6 years. "Me salmon. Me smell herring. Me strike." Genetic programming.
It might help to think of it as someone who says they are so full that they are ready to vomit... who then stuffs a pile of cookies in their face because they can't resist the smell of home-baked chocolate chip cookies.
Just because a spawning salmon picks something up and "eats" it, doesn't mean that it has anything to do with hunger. I've never heard from any experienced angler that salmon "ate" anything due to hunger after they pass the reach-of-tide. Their appetite shuts off, but not their instincts.
There are three ways I know of to entice a strike from spawning salmon:
1. Irritate and aggravate — spoons, spinners, plugs, corkies
2. Exploit feeding instincts — herring, sardines, scents
3. Exploit competitive survival instincts — roe
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AK Angler
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halibuthitman said:
I believe the situations you are describing are all boat situations, correct. I don't know if there's even any place to fish the bank from the Anchor river. I stay away from Kenai. I concentrate on the *other* major bank fishery there, along the Susitna/Parks Highway.
My theory on the Kwik Fish is that they are a double-whammy: you get the irritation from the sound, the aggravation of the flash, and the smell of baitfish.
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Mad dog
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I know I've shared these pic's before and they aren't corkies, but....It's the same principle of what a chinook will eat or won't eat! We catch salmon all the time fishing steelhead gear....light leaders, small artificials, #4 hook....these fish most deffinetely bit! Pick it up just like a steelhead! Why??? Who cares why! They just do! Would I fish a big hook behind a small corky....No!!! But, if you scale things down, I think most anglers would be amazed at what a chinook will bite!
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halibuthitman
Well-known member
are your beads pegged or just left sliding? I love the 10mm orange beads... they kill, ever tried the green beads in that size?
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AK Angler
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halibuthitman said:
Here is my Corky box for Alaska. I lean towards blue + green metallics, but I fish flat chartreuse + flat lime green quite often as well. I'll throw in some orange + yellow into the mix, some pink + silver, and some other random combos. This year, it seemed like pearlescent gold + pearlescent yellow was the go-to combination. I fished that one a lot this season while I was up there (June 4 - July 8). Sportsmen's Warehouse in Wasilla has a pretty good selection. They had a lot more pearlescent colors this year. 3 Rivers Fly & Tackle in Wasilla has a good selection too. They cost about 20¢ each.
If I'm fishing murky water or at night, I'll occasionally throw a glow-in-the-dark corky on, or add a glow-in-the-dark bead on top of the two corky lineup. And sometimes, when I'm feeling daffy, I'll tie something together just to be a wise guy, like red + silver + blue on 4th of July. It's fun to watch everyone tie up an imitation of your rig after you catch a few fish.
I'm really not a strong believer that corky color is a huge factor. I'd say maybe 10-20% of the overall equation. Putting it in the right spot, keeping a tight line, and pounding any tap with a hard and fast hookset are much more important factors.
I fish Corkies almost exclusively up in Alaska. There aren't many places where you can fish roe in South Central Alaska, but when I can (e.g., the Deshka), I will always add a glob of eggs on top of a single corky sized for a 4/0 hook. On rare occasions, you will see me throw a #6 Vibrax — blue body, silver blade. I maybe did it once in four weeks of fishing this year.
Don't ask me what the Spin-n-Glows are doing in the box. I almost never fish them — only once this year while drifting the mouth of Kashwitna.
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RunWithSasquatch
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You seem to be very comfortable with your technique that you seem to love to employ. I think your confidence is the biggest factor in getting those fish to bite. Hopefully we get to see some fish pictures soon!
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Drew9870
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Beads look very much like single eggs, also another good method for Coho, maybe a small corky does in some situations.
AK,
A lot of those Alaskan rivers get good runs of fish, snagged fish will happen to the best of us, I've witnessed a snagged fish on a bobber-down while in tidewater, there are many situations in which we would have to see our presentation to say exactly what the cause was, it is very much possible that the dudes fish was swimming away while barely hooked and the hook popped out and right back into the fishes tail, hard to say, many possibilities.
Imagine if one accidently flossed a fish with a sharp hook as your weight was lodged/heavy, the fish would either swim away or shake to clear the ''debris'' and possibly pull the weight loose leading to a 'strike', can you imagine pulling your snagged/heavy weight with that sharp object in your lip? But even in this made up, very much possible situation, it is also possible the fish actually hit it, there is a world of possibilities when you are running a line through the water horizontally.
AK,
A lot of those Alaskan rivers get good runs of fish, snagged fish will happen to the best of us, I've witnessed a snagged fish on a bobber-down while in tidewater, there are many situations in which we would have to see our presentation to say exactly what the cause was, it is very much possible that the dudes fish was swimming away while barely hooked and the hook popped out and right back into the fishes tail, hard to say, many possibilities.
Imagine if one accidently flossed a fish with a sharp hook as your weight was lodged/heavy, the fish would either swim away or shake to clear the ''debris'' and possibly pull the weight loose leading to a 'strike', can you imagine pulling your snagged/heavy weight with that sharp object in your lip? But even in this made up, very much possible situation, it is also possible the fish actually hit it, there is a world of possibilities when you are running a line through the water horizontally.
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Mad dog
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halibuthitman said:
The ones in the pic were free sliding. I rarely fish beads but when I do I usually peg them with a tuft of yarn in the hole of the bead to hold them against the hook. The yarn is nice for holding a little scent and doesn't fray your leader like a toothpick. I've watched steelhead peel off and follow a single bead for 15-20 ft. before taking them! Sometimes they are more effective than good roe!!!
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