Teaching fly fishing

[MattZ]

While halibut may not sugar coat things, there is general wisdom in what he says. Its true, you are not ready. I have been intensely dug into this craft for over 15yrs. that's working in shops, guiding, traveling to several continents to fish, fishing with The Irish National Champion, fishing with one of the finest trophy trout hunters on the planet, making videos, writing articles, tying for money. This sport is ridiculously complicated if you want it to be. I always thought i was a pretty good angler in North America, then I went to South Africa. Competition fly fishing is a big part of the culture for them, and that ideal drives them to fishing prowess not often attained by even the most reputable Americans. Those guys have a very European influence on their fishing and are incredibly technical. Pascal Cognard makes our USA gurus look like children. The finest fisherman in the world casts a 40ft leader on a 10ft 2wt. what he does on the river you would not even recognize as fishing in the form you are accustomed to. he can catch a fish, release it, wait 20, then catch it again.

can you spot fish? can you fish nymphs without indicators?

the mechanics of fly fishing are one thing, fishing is another. I'd love to spend a day on the river with you and see if you have the one intangible in all this.

Its called "fishiness"

Some of us have it, most of us don't. Some people are fishy, from day 1, some people can learn to cast 100ft, and will never be fishy.

You have accomplished a lot it seems, and thats great, but this game cannot be learned from books. you cannot cram experience.

I'd get out a day with ya and see what you have...

 

[halibuthitman]

Andrew I apologize for the manner I responded initially, Im not actually against you teaching from a fishing standpoint, after all, its just fishing. For as long as man has existed they have strived for higher eduction, and for centuries the position of educator or teacher has been held in very high regard.. a teacher is a master, a person with patience, life expirence and wisdom.. I have often been asked why I don't teach or guide.. the answers simple, no one should do the things I do when I fish.. I use beads, purposely throw belly into my line dragging nymphs, I purposely put drag on dry flies and skate them in heavy water, I sidearm cast all the time, I overline my rods sometimes so I can shoot farther, I cast right over water without working it to hit the most appealing part first.. I move too much and too fast and I refuse to fish things like truck and trailer set-ups and foam flies.. and im impatient and selfish. I don't contain any of the key elements of a "master". I have had great teachers in life and horrible teachers, nothing is worse than an instructor that teaches poorly. You owe it to anyone you teach to be the best you can be. I just spent a week on the Kenai watching hundreds of fishers make a circus out of the craft I love, big lead filled windmill casts reel held high over the head and then drive the rod to a huge splash landing... and a supposed teacher standing next to most of them.. its difficult to watch to say the least. I have the Orvis guide to flyfishing, lefty Kreh on fly casting and in the ring of the rise.. all books you should read, if you want to drive out I will loan them to you for a few months... and you should take at least 3 lessons with an instructor... and perfect your cast.. good luck Andrew-

 

[18406ej]

Call me an idiot if you will* and join a large and ever growing club, but I remain firm in my belief that there is nothing at all wrong with contrary (versus "negative") opinion, the former being a very useful tool that helps one form an educated answer based on all unbiased views of the question at hand. BUT while OFF will always be a forum accepting of free speech, as long as said speech remains within the wide confines of American mores, I would like to see all "negative" commentary aimed at OFF members relegated to PM communication (still within social mores parameters mentioned above). This will allow individuals to argue for their points of view without leading to hijacks and will also save the rest of us the time spent defending the "victim".

I believe that Jiminy Cricket sang something about all of this, but he was an irritating, self-righteous little f--k (like me) so I wouldn't listen to the song in the first place. If I was Pinocchio I would have blown a cloud of cigar smoke right into Jiminy's face, put him in a little red cage and shipped him to China so he could p--s them off as well.

For the record I know of a one-legged boy with an inhaler that trains Orcas at Sea World. Skip (as I call him) is a recognized expert in the field of rehabilitation, working out in the Orca pre-release ponds training the mammals how to increase their hunting success by circling schools of delicious fish. The little bubbles coming up aren't from his inhaler though...I think he has some sort of digestive condition.

*FYI I use the term "idiot" as a term of endearment, using the word to greet family and friends alike. Get used to it, idiots.

The word p-i-s-s is on the forbidden list? Seriously?

 

[halibuthitman]

Call me an idiot if you will* and join a large and ever growing club, but I remain firm in my belief that there is nothing at all wrong with contrary (versus "negative") opinion, the former being a very useful tool that helps one form an educated answer based on all unbiased views of the question at hand. BUT while OFF will always be a forum accepting of free speech, as long as said speech remains within the wide confines of American mores, I would like to see all "negative" commentary aimed at OFF members relegated to PM communication (still within social mores parameters mentioned above). This will allow individuals to argue for their points of view without leading to hijacks and will also save the rest of us the time spent defending the "victim".

I believe that Jiminy Cricket sang something about all of this, but he was an irritating, self-righteous little f--k (like me) so I wouldn't listen to the song in the first place. If I was Pinocchio I would have blown a cloud of cigar smoke right into Jiminy's face, put him in a little red cage and shipped him to China so he could **** them off as well.

For the record I know of a one-legged boy with an inhaler that trains Orcas at Sea World. Skip (as I call him) is a recognized expert in the field of rehabilitation, working out in the Orca pre-release ponds training the mammals how to increase their hunting success by circling schools of delicious fish. The little bubbles coming up aren't from his inhaler though...I think he has some sort of digestive condition.

*FYI I use the term "idiot" as a term of endearment, using the word to greet family and friends alike. Get used to it, idiots.

well id like to see Jameson come in a 2 gallon bottle and marb cigs in packs of 30... but its not gonna happen-

 

[ChezJfrey]

I'm going to side with Halibut, and like MattZ, I think there are some good elements in his posts on this subject, regardless of this perceived tone of cynicism you felt.

The fact that you haven't taken casting lessons yourself will be a limiting factor; while you may have fishing experience, it's the experience with a fine teacher you lack. I think without that, you will be missing something crucial. You can have lots of experience fishing, you can read lots of books, but I think that only the experience of watching a good teacher crafting instruction to an individual under their tutelage, seeing how they discern casting flaws and using their student's strengths, learning and communication style is what will teach you how to teach effectively...consider it like an apprenticeship where you will learn HOW to teach. Without that, I think you will lack.

 

[18406ej]

I swear that this is not a negative comment, but Jamison is available in a two-gallon (or nearest Metric equivalent) glass bottle. I saw one myself on a Carnival cruise up to Alaska while in an on-board liquor store. Ask Julie or Isaac if you don't believe me.

I might have read an article about cigarettes coming in a 30-count hard pack in the early 50's, but this packaging was unpopular because it could only be rolled into the T-shirt sleeve of those with the largest biceps which caused the smaller fellows to feel inferior and less confident about themselves*, an emotional condition completely opposite of what cigarette manufactures are trying to instill in users.

EJ

*Speaking of, why do condom manufacturers produce anything other than their "Magnum" size anymore? What fellow is going to have the confidence to walk into a drugstore, peruse the display case behind the counter and ask for anything but these? Even if they do have that hard to find French Tickler.

 

[Spydeyrch]

While halibut may not sugar coat things...

Yes, I agree. He doesn't. And I don't need or want it sugar coated, that would be ridiculous, it really would. It would be a waste of his time, energy,and a waste of mine to lead me on to a false sense of ability/pride/security with my own skills. But that being said, things to need to be sugar coated to help people. But they also shouldn't be covered in shrapnel either. hahahaha

There is general wisdom in what he says.

Yes, I agree with you. There is general wisdom in what he says, after one cuts out the cynicism. And I honestly and truly to appreciate the points that he brings to light in his posts, really I do. They give me a starting point to work on and a goal to work towards so that hopefully I can achieve something that I feel passionate about.

Its true, you are not ready.

I agree too, and I never said that I was ready at this point. I don't think I am ready to start teaching people on a professional level or even below a professional level to any degree at this point. But I would like to get there sooner than later. And I need somewhere to start. I would like to instill in people, that want it, the beauty that I find in fly fishing, and hope that they find it too and continue to pursue it.

I have been intensely dug into this craft for over 15yrs. that's working in shops, guiding, traveling to several continents to fish, fishing with The Irish National Champion, fishing with one of the finest trophy trout hunters on the planet, making videos, writing articles, tying for money. This sport is ridiculously complicated if you want it to be.

Oh, I believe you. You have PM'd me before (at least I think it was you, right??? :think and we briefly spoke about the Jackson Hole One Fly. Very interesting stuff and very cool that you were involved with it. :clap: I don't want it to be complicated. I don't need it to be complicated for me. It could be if I wanted to get involved with those aspects of it, but I don't see a need for it in my life and how I want to fish. Granted it would be an amazing experience for sure. :dance:

I always thought i was a pretty good angler in North America, then I went to South Africa. Competition fly fishing is a big part of the culture for them, and that ideal drives them to fishing prowess not often attained by even the most reputable Americans. Those guys have a very European influence on their fishing and are incredibly technical. Pascal Cognard makes our USA gurus look like children. The finest fisherman in the world casts a 40ft leader on a 10ft 2wt. what he does on the river you would not even recognize as fishing in the form you are accustomed to. he can catch a fish, release it, wait 20, then catch it again.

That is awesome, it really is!! Crazy casting a 40ft leader on a 2wt!!!! That would be a sight to behold! But then again, even though that is part of the sport there, I don't know if it is something I would want or need to pursue to better my ability to teach someone how to cast and fish ...... :think:

can you spot fish?

That is something that I still need to work on and I recognize that. Thus I would need more time to do it. And that is fine. But just because (and you did say this so this isn't against you personally in any way) currently I don't have the skill or isn't refined, doesn't mean that I can't acquire it and refine it, right.

Can you fish nymphs without indicators?

Yes, actually I can, and I do from time to time, but mostly not. I don't like to do it because it forces me to focus more on every little nuance of movement that the flyline and leader make. So I prefer to use an indicator. I guess you could chalk it up to being lazy, hahahaha :lol:

The mechanics of fly fishing are one thing, fishing is another.

I completely agree with your statement.

I'd love to spend a day on the river with you and see if you have the one intangible in all this.

Its called "fishiness"

Some of us have it, most of us don't. Some people are fishy, from day 1, some people can learn to cast 100ft, and will never be fishy.

I would love to hit the water with you too Matt. It would be a blast. And a wonderful opportunity. I am sure that I would learn a lot from you based upon your time in the sport, travels, experience, etc. I look forward to your tips and suggestions. But most of all, I look forward to just fishing.

You have accomplished a lot it seems, and thats great, ....

Thank you. And I apologize if it seemed like I was being cocky or bragging about my accomplishments. I was not trying to give that impression. The point I was trying to make by listing those items was that I believe I can do what it takes to learn how to teach a person to fly fish. I wasn't trying to puff myself up on an inflated ego to appear better than anyone person or multitude of people.

....but this game cannot be learned from books. you cannot cram experience.

Exactly. I stated something similar previously. That there is a difference between knowledge and application of the knowledge, which eventually earns you experience. I totally agree.

I'd get out a day with ya and see what you have...

Sounds awesome!! I just have to figure out when. My schedule for the next month - month and a half is pretty booked with summer vacation with the family, work, etc. August seems to be somewhat free for me. Would that work for you? Saturdays really are the only day that I can go.

Oh, and just so you know, we would be going to fish, not to examine me. But while we fish, feel free to point out things I could do better, that I am lacking, that I do well, etc. I am always open to positive feedback and criticism. It always helps!

Thanks for the input Matt.

Take care man.

-Spydey

 

[Spydeyrch]

Andrew I apologize for the manner I responded initially,

Thank you Brad. I really do respect your view points and opinions and take them into account. Sometimes one just has to sift through a few layers to get to the point at hand that you are making, which for the most part is a very valid point based upon loads of experience. So thank you Brad for your input.

Im not actually against you teaching from a fishing standpoint, after all, its just fishing. For as long as man has existed they have strived for higher eduction, and for centuries the position of educator or teacher has been held in very high regard.. a teacher is a master, a person with patience, life experience and wisdom.. I have often been asked why I don't teach or guide.. the answers simple, no one should do the things I do when I fish.. I use beads, purposely throw belly into my line dragging nymphs, I purposely put drag on dry flies and skate them in heavy water, I sidearm cast all the time, I overline my rods sometimes so I can shoot farther, I cast right over water without working it to hit the most appealing part first.. I move too much and too fast and I refuse to fish things like truck and trailer set-ups and foam flies.. and im impatient and selfish. I don't contain any of the key elements of a "master". I have had great teachers in life and horrible teachers, nothing is worse than an instructor that teaches poorly. You owe it to anyone you teach to be the best you can be.

I agree with you. And I hope to be able to achieve that if I decide to pursue this course of action. When I taught climbing and outdoors activities, I couldn't stand other instructors that would cut corners or not ensure that their students understood and grasped the concept being taught. It abhorred me to see them do that. And in the end it was the student who would suffer from the lack of good teachings, not the teacher.

I just spent a week on the Kenai watching hundreds of fishers make a circus out of the craft I love, big lead filled windmill casts reel held high over the head and then drive the rod to a huge splash landing... and a supposed teacher standing next to most of them.. its difficult to watch to say the least.

I believe you. I would feel the same way if someone was doing that to something that I held dearly and had a love for. And I would want to protect it as best I could from those that would adulterate it. So perhaps that is where you were coming from in your first post/response. Maybe it was more of a protection thing than anything else. What ever it was and the reasons, I don't think it is very important right now. But I do understand your point of view regarding it being difficult to watch. Totally.

I have the Orvis guide to flyfishing, lefty Kreh on fly casting and in the ring of the rise.. all books you should read, if you want to drive out I will loan them to you for a few months...

Thanks for the offer Brad. I think that I would rather get a copy of them for myself, if they are still in print. I am horrible at returning borrowed things, hahahahaha I would hate to drive a wedge between anglers over something silly like me not returning some borrowed books.

[

.... and you should take at least 3 lessons with an instructor... and perfect your cast.. good luck Andrew-

Yes, I plan on doing that man. I just need to figure out from whom and when and how many. Like you said, I don't want to get a poor teacher. I want someone that will take the time to instruct me and teach me, not just speak at me and tell me things. Thanks for the positiveness Brad. It really does go along way man.

Oh, and I think that you still owe me a steelhead trip, right. If you are still up to it man.

Take care Brad and thanks for the input. I really do appreciate it.

-Andrew

 

[Spydeyrch]

I'm going to side with Halibut, and like MattZ, I think there are some good elements in his posts on this subject, regardless of this perceived tone of cynicism you felt.

The fact that you haven't taken casting lessons yourself will be a limiting factor; while you may have fishing experience, it's the experience with a fine teacher you lack. I think without that, you will be missing something crucial. You can have lots of experience fishing, you can read lots of books, but I think that only the experience of watching a good teacher crafting instruction to an individual under their tutelage, seeing how they discern casting flaws and using their student's strengths, learning and communication style is what will teach you how to teach effectively...consider it like an apprenticeship where you will learn HOW to teach. Without that, I think you will lack.

I very much agree. And I think that is a key factor in acquiring the ability to teach. I just didn't know where to start, if I needed certain things, don't need certain things, etc. So I figured I would open it up to OFF for input. And I have received a lot of it, both via this thread and via PMs. I think it is all good input and I appreciate it. It gives me starting points, things to research, things to look forward to and to work toward. I honestly didn't have a starting point and didn't know where nor how to start.

So thank you for your input.

-Spydey

 

[Spydeyrch]

@ EJ

Dude, you crack me up with your amazing posts!! hahahahaha :lol:

Thanks man for the awesomeness of your insight!

-Spydey

 

[18406ej]

I am sorry for contributing to all of this "blah, blah, blah" hijacking that I most hypocritically railed against earlier.

I want to clarify a thought that I posted today:

No Forum member, myself included, should take umbrage at contributions of "Negative Truth", meaning statements posted contrary to your own with supporting argument(s), and hopefully of some constructive use to the intended receiver. The antithesis of negative truth is "negative comment", perhaps best defined as a statement made contrary to another's thoughts or actions without any supporting thoughts whatsoever, and devoid of matter with any constructive use. Maybe even better defined as the first thing one might say before their first coffee of the morning.

OFF proudly allows free speech- my request to you was that if you have a negative comment could you be kind enough to send it via PM to the intended receiver, or if you receive a post in your thread that you perceive to be the same, could you respond via PM as well?

You can always say what you like here (see my first post in this thread for negating details), but it would be nice to not be drawn into things (which out of our human nature aka "busy-bodyness" we are all susceptible to do), plus it would be better for some of our eyes and schedules to not have to squint or trudge our way through this side commentary until we get back to the Thread's original topic.

I cannot think of a fitting salutation to end this.

 

[jrbecca]

I cannot think of a fitting salutation to end this.

Hmm. Shall I post a picture of the bruises I walked away with after Spydey took me fishing on a creek with the biggest ass boulders I've ever had to wade over and around? A little leg flash to unite the troops?

 

[Raincatcher]

Hmm. Shall I post a picture of the bruises I walked away with after Spydey took me fishing on a creek with the biggest ass boulders I've ever had to wade over and around? A little leg flash to unite the troops?

Well....maybe some of the troops...:lol:

 

[Spydeyrch]

Just to clarify something:

This would not be to guide.

It would not be to earn income.

It would not be to become a professional instructor.

I just wanted to make sure that was clear. Those aren't my motives.

If at some point down the line (10 to 15 years) I consider myself sufficiently trained and apt, then I might look into doing it for income ... on the side. ..... but that is a ways down the road.


@ Jrbecca - but at least you and your husband had a good time, right! :dance:

-Spydey

 

[MattZ]

I think you are ready for the challenge for sure! You have the attitude it takes to pay attention to all the details. have fun along the way, and always teach, at every opportunity. Its one of the best ways to keep learning. there is always someone who knows a bit less than you, so teaching them means a lot.

Best of luck and have fun with it.