Steelhead or rainbow on the swing?

[GungasUncle]

No, I'm saying that on certain coastal streams, ODFW lumps Cutthroat Trout over 20" into the "STEELHEAD" category. You can't KEEP those fish, even on streams that now allow them to be retained, because you can't keep WILD steelhead, and there are no Cutthroat stocking programs.

What I'm suggesting, is that ODFW *NOT* lump cutthroat trout into being called "Steelhead" because it's biologically inaccurate. There's no NEED to do it. They simply could've said "NO retention of cutthroat over 19 inches", or otherwise include a slot limit for retention on streams that allow retention of cutthroat trout.

Don't be such a dick.

 

[john montana]

The fish in the pic that he posted....call it what you want! I'll tell you one thing, that fish has never been to the salt!

+1

No way did that fish spend any time in the ocean (judging solely by the picture). I used to trout fish the clack a ton and it is rare to catch anything over twelve inches. A 17 inch bow is memorable. I say congrats.

I have to add this...I find the idea of "experts" saying there are no resident fish in the lower clack laughable. Of course there are, just not many. These same "experts" claim grass carp (white Amur) are released only in land locked lakes and sterile...again, laughable. Spend any time on the Columbia or Willamette systems and you will see the grass carp (so much for land locked) in sizes ranging from 12 inches to 5 feet long (strange size distribution for a rarely stocked "sterile" fish).

Anecdotal evidence is dangerous, but I have seen and heard enough of it to believe there are a few resident rainbow in the lower clack.

 

[Van]

Well...if your wife says it's a steelhead....it must be a steelhead! :lol:

A juvenile jab? Cute. Considering my wife is a principal level fisheries biologist with years and years of field experience compared to your fishing past time it really is obvious who is correct. Federal and State agencies and massive natural resource extraction companies listen to her and her coworkers. You, not so much...

Considering the information provided....the experts and Biologist's say that a rainbow under 20" is a trout! :lol:

I suppose that might be the case if you completely ignored what was posted and where the fish was caught. As stated, the only way to know for sure is with a scale sample test. Since we dont have that we could all argue till we are blue in the face.

 

[Mad dog]

some coastal rivers include cutts over a certain size as steelhead.

Again, your original statement! :think:

 

[Mad dog]

No, I'm saying that on certain coastal streams, ODFW lumps Cutthroat Trout over 20" into the "STEELHEAD" category. You can't KEEP those fish, even on streams that now allow them to be retained, because you can't keep WILD steelhead, and there are no Cutthroat stocking programs.

What I'm suggesting, is that ODFW *NOT* lump cutthroat trout into being called "Steelhead" because it's biologically inaccurate. There's no NEED to do it. They simply could've said "NO retention of cutthroat over 19 inches", or otherwise include a slot limit for retention on streams that allow retention of cutthroat trout.

Don't be such a dick.

No!!! That is totally wrong!

A Cutthroat trout on any given stream will always have it's own regulations.

 

[Mad dog]

It seems that Mrs. Van has other ideas about it. See, she is a fisheries biologist by training and before she moved up into corporate financials she was a senior fisheries person doing salmon, steelhead and trout work that included surveys and habitat restoration. According to her the main stem of the Clack does not have a resident Rainbow population. The feeder streams do however. She thinks that it is a Jack. So, tomorrow she is emailing the pic up to a coworker in Seattle who is a trout guy for his input. lol.

It seems my wife is coming to the rescue of my lost first steelhead. lol

A jack refers to a small sexually mature salmon, did she sex the fish?

 

[Mad dog]

A juvenile jab? Cute. Considering my wife is a principal level fisheries biologist with years and years of field experience compared to your fishing past time it really is obvious who is correct. Federal and State agencies and massive natural resource extraction companies listen to her and her coworkers. You, not so much...



I suppose that might be the case if you completely ignored what was posted and where the fish was caught. As stated, the only way to know for sure is with a scale sample test. Since we dont have that we could all argue till we are blue in the face.

Massive natural resource extraction companies!!! Who can argue with that....they must be right!

 

[Mad dog]

No, I'm saying that on certain coastal streams, ODFW lumps Cutthroat Trout over 20" into the "STEELHEAD" category. You can't KEEP those fish, even on streams that now allow them to be retained, because you can't keep WILD steelhead, and there are no Cutthroat stocking programs.

What I'm suggesting, is that ODFW *NOT* lump cutthroat trout into being called "Steelhead" because it's biologically inaccurate. There's no NEED to do it. They simply could've said "NO retention of cutthroat over 19 inches", or otherwise include a slot limit for retention on streams that allow retention of cutthroat trout.

Don't be such a dick.

I just read the entire 2011 fishing regs. and can't find anything even remotely close to what you are stating! Not one mention of releasing cutthroat over 20"....anywhere! There are streams that are strictly catch and release for trout, most are pretty liberal with 1 trout over 20" allowed in the bag limit.

I think you are full of crap!!! Or confused!

 

[Van]

A jack refers to a small sexually mature salmon, did she sex the fish?

If you had any specific expertise in fisheries you would know that a jack refers to an anadromous salmonid (look it up if you need to) that returns back to its natal waters to spawn earlier than its counterparts.

Massive natural resource extraction companies!!! Who can argue with that....they must be right!

If you are going to try and troll me, you are gonna have to really improve your game from its current sad level.

 

[Modest_Man]

Sorry but a jack only applies to salmon...not steelhead. Look in the regulations. If that "steelhead" was a "jack" you could tag it. People would just be tagging larger trout as "jack steelhead".

Page 8. Jack salmon are coho between 15 and 20 inches in length and any other salmon species between 15 and 24 inches in length when in fresh-water or bays. Jack salmon are not a separate species of salmon, but a life-history stage of various species of salmon that return to fresh-water and become sexually mature after only a short period in the ocean. Thus, there are jack coho and jack Chinook salmon, for example

Sea-run rainbow trout over 20 inches in length except in Northwest and Southwest Zone streams where rainbow trout over 16 inches in length are defined as steelhead

The italics and bold parts are put there by ODFW. Probably to emphasize the distinction of jacks being a salmon. By any definition by ODFW that is a rainbow trout.

There ARE resident trout in the lower Clackamas but they're hatchery fish that come down from the dam. http://www.oregonlive.com/sports/or...f/2009/05/trout_fishing_reopens_on_clack.html

My quasi-professional opinion is that it is an offspring (from either steelhead or rainbow) that decided to become a resident in the lower section. Heck, even a upper tributary wild bow could have made its way downstream, crazier things have happened.

 

[RunWithSasquatch]

Sorry but a jack only applies to salmon...not steelhead. Look in the regulations. If that "steelhead" was a "jack" you could tag it. People would just be tagging larger trout as "jack steelhead".

Page 8. Jack salmon are coho between 15 and 20 inches in length and any other salmon species between 15 and 24 inches in length when in fresh-water or bays. Jack salmon are not a separate species of salmon, but a life-history stage of various species of salmon that return to fresh-water and become sexually mature after only a short period in the ocean. Thus, there are jack coho and jack Chinook salmon, for example

Sea-run rainbow trout over 20 inches in length except in Northwest and Southwest Zone streams where rainbow trout over 16 inches in length are defined as steelhead

The italics and bold parts are put there by ODFW. Probably to emphasize the distinction of jacks being a salmon. By any definition by ODFW that is a rainbow trout.

There ARE resident trout in the lower Clackamas but they're hatchery fish that come down from the dam. http://www.oregonlive.com/sports/or...f/2009/05/trout_fishing_reopens_on_clack.html

My quasi-professional opinion is that it is an offspring (from either steelhead or rainbow) that decided to become a resident in the lower section. Heck, even a upper tributary wild bow could have made its way downstream, crazier things have happened.

Good post.

 

[Van]

Sorry but a jack only applies to salmon...not steelhead. Look in the regulations.

You are correct that the term "jack" refers to a life stage; however you are wrong in saying that "jack" doesn't apply to steelhead. A jack is an anadromous salmonid that returns to it's natal stream earlier than it's counterparts. A coho, chum, and steelhead can all come back as jacks. You're reference above is a salmon reg that has nothing to do with steelhead what-so-ever.

Don't take my word for it, check out the WDFW steelhead creel survey data. Their state fisheries biologist have noted several steelhead jacks. The same is true for Oregon.

With this last bit to back up my position, i am done trying to convince some of what they are determined not to be convinced of.

Good post.

I agree. It was a good, well written post.

 

[FlyBum]

Been reading this a bit and was just wondering how many different ways there are to beat a dead horse???? LOL

 

[waco]

Well then, congratulations on your first "steelhead" when you catch a real one you will notice the difference!! :clap:

 

[Van]

First on the swing sunshine, not first ever.

 

[bigsteel]

for catching a nice fish you sure ruined your own thread,if you dont want someones opinion DONT ASK

 

[Van]

It wasn't me that ruined the thread, but i sure learned something about a few around here...

 

[waco]

I would be more proud to said i catch a nice big fat wild trout (pretty hard to catch one at the lower river)than saying a got a skinny little baby steelhead!!!

 

[Modest_Man]

You are correct that the term "jack" refers to a life stage; however you are wrong in saying that "jack" doesn't apply to steelhead. A jack is an anadromous salmonid that returns to it's natal stream earlier than it's counterparts. A coho, chum, and steelhead can all come back as jacks. You're reference above is a salmon reg that has nothing to do with steelhead what-so-ever.

Don't take my word for it, check out the WDFW steelhead creel survey data. Their state fisheries biologist have noted several steelhead jacks. The same is true for Oregon.

With this last bit to back up my position, i am done trying to convince some of what they are determined not to be convinced of.





I agree. It was a good, well written post.

You missed the entire meaning of my post. According to everything ODFW posts about salmon/steelhead/rainbows/jacks....that fish is considered a rainbow. This point is not arguable.

I can throw up several scholarly articles about steelhead half-pounders (essentially a steelhead "jack")...must we all call them half-pounders?

http://www.nwfsc.noaa.gov/publications/techmemos/tm10/tm10.htm

 

[Mad dog]

It wasn't me that ruined the thread, but i sure learned something about a few around here...

What completely pissed me off is that you asked for an opinion, then totally disregarded anyones input before you heard it! Why did you even ask? :think:

Learning quite a bit about you as well Van!

We all know you caught a steelhead on a bass lure....but that wasn't a real steelhead because you caught it on a bass lure and were not targeting steelhead. But...because you caught this particular fish using a proven steelhead catching technique so this fish becomes a steelhead? Would it have been more of a trout if you would have been nymphing with an indicator and a 5wt.? :lol: Is that what this is really about? Did you want someone to praise you for catching the fish on the swing? Or the fly? a lot of this seems to be coming back to the method of the catch in your posts! :think:

Nice job Van!!! Put one over on those gear tossers!